Sue Talbot: 0:00

And I've come to the conclusion that um he just liked being in the newspapers. He liked he liked being center of attention.

Crista Cowan: 0:10

Okay. Stories that live in us is a podcast that inspires you to form deep connections with your family, past, present, and future. I'm Crista Cowan, known online as The Barefoot Genealogist. Counting down to the upcoming celebration of America's 250th birthday, you'll meet families from each state whose stories are woven into the very fabric of America. Tales of immigration, migration, courage, and community that remind us that when we tell our stories, we strengthen the bonds that connect us. So join me for season two as we discover from sea to shining sea, the stories that live in us. We are deep into our America 250 series, and today we get to go to the state of Illinois. But the voice you're gonna hear may be a little startling. When you think about Illinois, you probably think about somebody with a Chicago accent or a deep Midwest accent. But my guest today has a very British accent. And our story today starts in England. Now, when you start climbing your family tree, there are usually two kinds of reactions. Some people start climbing their family tree hoping that they're going to find a scandal of some sort, because those are the interesting ancestors. And some people start climbing their family tree dreading that they will find a scandal. Well, my guest today is Sue Talbot, and she found the scandal of all scandals. There is crime, there is corruption, there is suicide, there is infidelity, there is a lot happening in this story. And ultimately it leads from England to Chicago, Illinois. Enjoy my conversation with my guest, Sue Talbot. Sue, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. Sometimes I invite my friends on the podcast, but sometimes I get to meet new friends. And so I would just love to know tell me, tell me all about you.

Sue Talbot: 2:11

Okay, so um I grew up in the northwest of England, um, on the Wirral, which is near Liverpool. And um I got into hairdressing and then I um moved to uh London and then moved again to Birmingham, and finally I've settled in Northamptonshire. Um, and I was a university administrator for about 20 years, and I've recently retired. Congratulations, that's exciting.

Crista Cowan: 2:45

So, for people who aren't familiar with British geography, where it's Northamptonshire.

Sue Talbot: 2:49

Northamptonshire is right in the middle of England. Okay. It's where Lady Diana, uh, the Princess of Wales, late, um, lived or grew up.

Crista Cowan: 3:02

Well, um, how did you first get interested in family history? What did that look like for you?

Sue Talbot: 3:07

Um, I think I first got into family history after um my grandmother died. Um my mum and her sister had always had this sneaking suspicion that uh their parents weren't married. Oh, because when my grandfather died um in 1943, which was a long time ago, my mum was quite small, he had quite a good job um on the railways, and he didn't get a pension. She didn't get his pension. So they had always thought that this was very strange. Um, and after she died, they went through her her documents in the house and found the will, which uh confirmed their thoughts. And so they started a little bit of research, and that's when I got involved.

Crista Cowan: 4:07

Wow. So did you get to the bottom of why grandma and grandpa never married? Yes.

Sue Talbot: 4:14

Um, so they never married because he was already married to somebody else.

Crista Cowan: 4:20

Oh goodness. So was it just a matter of he hadn't gotten a divorce, or did he actually have two families?

Sue Talbot: 4:27

Um, I think it was a matter of he didn't get a divorce. Um, his wife, uh, because I later, through um a little bit of detective work, um, I later spoke to his granddaughter. Um and she confirmed that her her grandmother would never have divorced him. Okay. And I guess she got she got the pension.

Crista Cowan: 4:55

Oh yeah, right. So she was legally entitled to it. Um, and so did your mother and her sister ever meet any siblings from that relationship?

Sue Talbot: 5:07

No, um, and I only had a I had a very, very good two-hour conversation with this lady who was the same age as my mum, um, because of the difference in the age gap um between my grandmother and my grandfather. Um and I think it was just all a bit too much for her. So I've just let it be. I think it's hard.

Crista Cowan: 5:37

Yeah, for sure. So she would be your mom's half niece, right?

Sue Talbot: 5:42

Yeah. But she but she would be the same age as my mum. So it's so funny how that happens. A little bit strange, yes.

Crista Cowan: 5:53

So did you grow up um close to your other grandparents at all?

Sue Talbot: 5:58

Uh yes. Um in a way, um, I I was close to my grandmother, um, and she lived nearby. Um, my dad's parents, um, I was close to them, but they decided to move to Australia um when I was about four. Um, and my grandfather used to write me letters um about once a month and send me books. And so I I have that relationship with them. Um, and in my 20s, I I I went out there and visited them, which was nice.

Crista Cowan: 6:36

That's lovely. I love that. So as you were growing up, like it sounds like your interest in family history was sparked by a particular event, but you know, this curiosity to solve this mystery about your grandparents. But were there other family stories you heard growing up that kind of stuck in the back of your brain and and became part of your family history journey? Uh uh no, not really.

Sue Talbot: 7:00

We're a family of um, especially my dad's family, um always talking, always telling stories, um, but nothing about the family. It was uh a little strange. Um, however, I did have an experience with my grandmother. I used to go after school for tea, um, and this occasion with my cousins, um on this occasion I went and I was alone, and she had all these things, um, uh a wooden plane and um some pictures on the sideboard. And I asked her what they were, and she said, They're Arthur's. And I said, Who who's Arthur? And she said, It's your mum's brother. But I had no idea who Arthur was. Um and she just said he died when he was young, and and that was that. So, of course, I went home to my mum and and asked her, and she was surprised that my grandmother had even spoken about it. Um, because sadly he'd committed suicide at age 14. Um and so it never been spoken about from that time. My mum would have only been about three. Um, but yeah, very sad.

Crista Cowan: 8:30

Well, and the fact that your grandmother somehow wanted to connect you to him and to that story, she put those things out intentionally.

Sue Talbot: 8:37

Yeah, she did, but she wouldn't discuss the you know, anything else. Um, and that was the only time she ever spoke to me about it.

Crista Cowan: 8:48

Oh wow. And so uh after that conversation with your mother, did he ever come up again? Did you look into his life a little more once you became interested in family history?

Sue Talbot: 8:59

Yes. Um sadly, we're sort of at a dead end in that um the records were destroyed um in the 1970s. Um, because records here uh closed if there's been um a coroner's report for 75 years. Um the 75 years was up, and so I inquired. Um, and a very nice lady in the records office told me that somebody high up had decided there wasn't enough room to keep the documents and they had all been burnt. Um so I I only have a newspaper report.

Crista Cowan: 9:45

Um so hard for that family. Yes. Now that you know that, that's what happened. Can you look can you look back at your grandma and your mom and see that how it might have affected them?

Sue Talbot: 10:02

Oh yes, definitely, because my mum never had a really good relationship with her mum. And um it it's quite sad really that um you know we didn't get to talk about it. Um my my auntie is uh was a social worker, and I think she didn't want to press her brother for that information because obviously it was it it was just very hard. It must have been very hard, but he was always such a happy person. Um so I think he perhaps made a piece to to go on and you know live his life um without it sort of affecting him too much.

Crista Cowan: 10:54

Yeah. Yeah. So on your mom's side of the family, she was one of four children, or were there more?

Sue Talbot: 11:00

Um, she was one from my grandfather. Um, there were three of them. And then my grandmother had been married before, and her husband died. And so there were two children from that marriage. So five, and then obviously Arthur died. Yeah. Yeah.

Crista Cowan: 11:18

It's interesting because as we dive into family history, sometimes we dive into it like a little bit like you did with a mystery to solve or something curious. But you know, almost invariably we encounter hard things because, you know, life is hard for people and a lot of times and a lot of places and a lot of circumstances. And so the fact that you encountered that story at such a young age and then had an opportunity to reconcile it a little bit when you got into family history, I think that that's a necessary thing, especially like hearing stories like that as a child. Sometimes we don't have the capacity to put it in the right mental framework, right? Um, but to then think about it through the eyes of a mother uh losing her child. And, you know, once you're a mother, you're gonna process that very differently than you might have as a child looking at that experience.

Sue Talbot: 12:12

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Crista Cowan: 12:14

So as you got involved in family history, were there other discoveries that came along or other interesting stories that came out?

Sue Talbot: 12:22

Uh the main one has to be my great great grandfather. Um so having which side which side of your family tree? So this is mum's um side. So mum's father's side. Okay. Jenkinson's. Um and mum and her sister went off and did a little bit of research um in Nottingham, where he was uh he grew up. Um their father grew up. They found out a little bit, but there was obviously more to find. And I guess that's where I started my journey. Um, and I went and tried to find out a little bit more. Um so I found out that um he was mayor of the town, um, and that he was a Methodist preacher, and that they lived in a nice big fancy house. Um, and I reported back to mum, and she was pleased. And where was this? It's a place called Redford in Nottinghamshire. Okay. Um and um this would have been around about 1850. Okay. Up until about the 1880s. Um and he was a jeweler as well, um, and watchmaker. Um so he was doing pretty well. Um, he'd gone into the family business, his father was a watchmaker and silversmith, and he had four shops um in different parts of the county. And the next day I reported back to Mum and she said, Oh, Jean, her sister, would be really pleased because she knew we were from good stock. Um that came crashing down the next day when I found some documents at the records office that um were a bit shocking. Um and John Jenkinson had later gone into stockbrokering and had absconded with debts, a lot of money was missing. Do you know how much? Well, uh there are different reports, it's between 30 and 50,000 pounds at the time in 1884. And he was declared bankrupt. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder if he wasn't bankrupt, he just helped himself quite quite people's mummy. Um so I then reported back to to my mum, and obviously that was a bit sort of like we'd gone up in the world and then came crashing down.

Crista Cowan: 15:36

Isn't it so funny when you're researching family histories? Sometimes it's like those events are happening right now, not that they happened a hundred years ago, because we're so invested in the story as we uncover it. Yeah.

Sue Talbot: 15:49

Yes. Um, so it I I I found out quite a bit of information that this is quite a long time ago. Um, and um, because we were going to have this chat, I started looking a bit more into it, and I found a quite a few documents um recently in the last couple of weeks. Um and I've come to the conclusion that um he just liked being in the newspapers. He liked he liked being center of attention.

Crista Cowan: 16:23

Okay. Well, he was he the mayor at the time this all went down, or had he just been mayor before?

Sue Talbot: 16:29

He had just been mayor. Um, he put his business up for sale. Um, although I'm not sure if they actually sold because two of his sons were still running the businesses at the time he went missing. So there's a lot of ambiguous comments in the press and so he's he's what uh like he's what in his 50s at this time, his 60s? How old is that? Um so he would have been in his 50s, late 50s. Okay, and did he just have the two sons or did he have more children? He had more children. In fact, his last child was born in 1880. Oh, goodness. And he absconded in 1884.

Crista Cowan: 17:18

And so did he disappear with his wife and younger child, or did he leave them all behind? He left them all behind. Oh my goodness. Okay, tell me everything you know about what happened to him.

Sue Talbot: 17:30

So he he leaves and they believe he's gone to Spain. Um, so he's gone, and the whole town is in uproar because everybody's lost their money. And you know, they're not happy, and my great-grandfather, John's son, uh, who was also John, um he resigned his position as um treasurer of the town council. Guilt by association. And um they didn't want him to go, but he felt he had to under the circumstances. So he sort of lost that position in society. Um my great-great-grandmother Anne, she uh went to live with her son in um Newark, which is nearby. And um sadly, in the June, the following it it so he would have left in February 1884. In June 1884, she got herself dressed early in the morning and went out and walked into the river and committed suicide. I can only think that it was suicide. And later that day she was found.

Crista Cowan: 18:57

Oh, that's heartbreaking, but the shame that she must have the guilt she must have felt and the shame that must have been heaped on her by that community. Like, I can't imagine having to endure that. And she's still got at least one young child. And yeah, that's so heartbreaking.

Sue Talbot: 19:13

Yes, and I was lucky enough to actually go in the house that she was living in. So he had bought this big house at the sort of entrance to um the town. It had been turned into flats, but I decided I would knock on the door and ask, um, being a bit cheeky. But uh so I went in and saw the ground floor of the building, and it was a six-bedroom villa with four acres of pleasure grounds. So um the shame of rising so high and then falling because he'd left her to face the music.

Crista Cowan: 19:52

And so what happened to the younger child or children?

Sue Talbot: 19:56

Um I found him living with my great-grandfather, who I feel must have been a a good person, you know. He he resigned, he looked after his sibling. Um so the the the links between the family and the and the people of the town continued because he was John Jenkinson was friends with uh practically everybody that lived there. It was a small market town. Um and so all these names keep cropping up in documents. Um and in the meantime, we think he went to America.

Crista Cowan: 20:44

So did the family ever know what happened to him, or is this all now gonna be, is the rest of the story all just gonna be things you discovered since then? No.

Sue Talbot: 20:55

But it sort of continues, so he he's gone to America and in 1885 um it's reported in the paper um that um he had written a letter to his wife's housekeeper and invited her to America. The housekeeper. The younger house housekeeper.

Crista Cowan: 21:23

Did he know his wife had died at this point? Like was there communication? Okay.

Sue Talbot: 21:29

I think there would have been. This is what makes me think there's a bit more to the story. Right. Um and he goes to America, he asks her to go over, and she goes over, and they marry in Manhattan in 1885. Okay. And her cousin, who was his head apprentice, also goes over.

Crista Cowan: 21:58

Okay.

Sue Talbot: 22:00

And then they all go to Chicago and they set up in business in um West Madison Street.

Crista Cowan: 22:11

And does he go back into the jewelry into the jewelry business or the watchmaking business? Yes. Okay.

Sue Talbot: 22:18

So that to me means there must have been quite a bit of money around for him to do that. Yeah. And he just keeps on popping up in the press um for various things, you know, a robbery in the jewelry store. Um and then it takes a twist. Because there haven't been enough tests already. I'm going to backtrack because his one of his sons goes out to um to visit him. In Chicago? In Chicago with his wife in 1885, and his daughter is born there.

Crista Cowan: 23:07

So so Jon has a granddaughter born in Chicago. So he's staying in touch with his children, and there's still family relationships, in spite of what he's done. Yes. Okay.

Sue Talbot: 23:21

So I've found quite a lot of documents or newspaper reports about him going into politics and um having been the benefactor of uh people's wills. Um I've also uh I I knew about this quite a while ago, but um in 1902 he assaulted a man outside the Tacoma building in Chicago and um had been sending him letters because he believed this man to be having uh relationships with his wife. Oh goodness. And so he's back in court again. Um and that's when I found quite an interesting uh newspaper document um which stated that the Frederick Shelley, who was his head apprentice and cousin to Annie Thompson, who was the housekeeper, I'm with you. Yeah, they they persuaded John Jenkinson to sign over the jewelry store. Okay. And at this point he's in his 70s. About 69. Okay. Um and then he gets arrested. I haven't found out what the outcome of that case was. Um, but I think that was the end of the three of them being together. Oh goodness. Um my thoughts are that perhaps Frederick Shelley and Annie Thompson, well, an idol.

Crista Cowan: 25:15

Even though they were cousins, yeah, that they might have been romantically involved. Yeah. Yes. Well, either way, they're scheming to take advantage of him, but probably feeling completely justified in doing it because he's taken advantage of so many people over the years, and they basically apprenticed under him, not just for not just for jewelry making.

Sue Talbot: 25:36

He's an interesting character. Absolutely. And of course, his son died very young. Um I believe John might have died in Chicago around about 1907. Um, and Frederick and Annie, um, perhaps in the 1930s. Um I found them on the 1920s census. And I think for the family, my great-grandfather, John, um he died in 1912. So he was relatively young, I think about 54. Um and then the other son, William, um sort of took on a little bit of John's uh genes, and I find him being arrested by his cousin in Kent for um steal some jewelry, and um I found his prison record, um, which solved uh little bit of uh um an issue for me because my parents both have very blue eyes, I have green eyes, and that's where I found um John Jenkinson's son William arrested with dark hair and one one green eye.

Crista Cowan: 27:07

Well, there you go. My goodness. So his son that came to Chicago to visit him, did he stay in Chicago or did he go back to England?

Sue Talbot: 27:17

No, that that was William, and um he I think um found life quite difficult. His marriage broke up, and um, of course, he's he's been arrested. So he's obviously not um you know, sort of continuing in the lifestyle, and he's a bit of a a a sort of uh traveler, um, traveling around the country, just getting into trouble. Um, but I haven't been able to find a death for him. Um so yes.

Crista Cowan: 27:55

Okay. And so then did John and Annie have any children together?

Sue Talbot: 28:01

No. No, they didn't.

Crista Cowan: 28:03

Okay, so John comes to America, brings the housekeeper and his apprentice, eventually dies here, and that is the connection, like that is the only people that end up in Chicago. Everybody else is either stays in England or goes back to England. Wow. Yeah. So as you've done this research, obviously into these let's call them colorful characters in your family tree. Um, did you do any research into the history of Chicago? Like, why do you think he chose Chicago?

Sue Talbot: 28:35

So I I think for me, the only thing that I really know is sort of like the Al Capone stories and um but I don't know why he would have chosen um Chicago.

Crista Cowan: 28:49

For an English immigrant who's essentially fleeing the accountability from his choices uh to end up there is super curious. And there is a criminal element in that city and has, you know, was for a long time. And so maybe that had something to do with it. Maybe he thought he could, you know, reinvent himself there or and knowing his um his proclivity to not be faithful to a wife, it's still very possible, I guess, that you could have some cousins out there. Possibly. DNA might reveal DNA might reveal that, right? Possibly. Yeah, it's it's so interesting to me. So I have um an ancestor who came from England. Uh, she came in the 1700s, but she came because she had been convicted of theft in London, and her sentence was transportation to the Americas. And so I think sometimes we think about you know the criminal element that became, in some ways, the founding of this country, the founding of Australia, from people leaving England. That that is part of the fabric of the American story. And I think we see that pop up in some of the Wild West towns of you know, St. Louis and and uh out in Arizona and up in Wyoming, and then certainly in the way that Chicago grew up as a city as well. One of the things that happens when you start doing family history is you realize how how both how vast and how small the world really is. Yeah. I love that. Well, as you think about um this story and this connection to the United States and to Chicago specifically, like um have you ever visited Chicago? Have you ever been to the US?

Sue Talbot: 30:42

I've never been to the US. Um, I am going to Alaska in June next year. Um I still I think um I definitely want to go and visit Chicago. Um I think to really connect to the story, you have to go and visit the places where the people lived. Um I recently had a trip to Scotland, where my um paternal um grandmother had lived, and and that really I I feel like there was something there.

Crista Cowan: 31:24

Yeah, it's so important. So you haven't yet found when exactly when John died, or you do know when he died?

Sue Talbot: 31:31

No, I don't know when he died. I think it was about 1907.

Crista Cowan: 31:36

Okay. So you have no idea where he's buried, or well, well, then then there's a little more research, it sounds like to do. And maybe maybe you can do that uh on the ground in Chicago, or maybe you can make that discovery before you come to Chicago so you can pay your respects. Yes. As you, you know, think back to when you very first started your family history journey, wanting to like explore the mystery of your grandparents, and knowing that you, you know, most people in England have very deep English roots. Sometimes they, you know, their tree branches a little into England or into Ireland or up into Scotland. Did you ever think you would have a connection to the States? Uh no.

Sue Talbot: 32:19

No, definitely not. But I should add, and I guess this ties in with your celebrations of the 250 years. Um, one of John's descendants, my my cousin, my um first cousin, has become an American citizen recently. And he's been in America for 20 years. So it's a bit full circle.

Crista Cowan: 32:44

Absolutely it is. That's lovely. Well, Sue, thank you so much. Thank you for staying up late in the UK to talk to us tonight. Um, and thank you for sharing your story. I've it's such an interesting connection to Illinois and to Chicago in particular, and uh super certainly an insight into the lives of some of the characters that are in our family trees. Studio sponsored by Ancestry.