Sarah Walker: 0:00

And I just thought, oh my gosh, this is this is it. This is what happened. He didn't have to serve because this was happening. And I could read articles about what everybody was thinking at that time. But to actually be able to access like the newspapers and oral histories and collections where you can really see that happening in what was the present of that person, it's such a different experience.

Crista Cowan: 0:25

Stories That Live in Us is a podcast that inspires you to form deep connections with your family, past, present, and future. I'm Crista Cowan, known online as The Barefoot Genealogist. Coming down to the upcoming celebration of America's 250th birthday, you'll meet families from each state whose stories are woven into the very fabric of America. Tales of immigration, migration, courage, and community that remind us that when we tell our stories, we strengthen the bonds that connect us. So join me for season two as we discover from sea to shining sea the stories that live in us. I think I have a pretty great job. I get to do family history on occasion as part of my day job here at Ancestry. But Sarah Walker has a pretty amazing job. She is the head of reference services at the North Dakota State Archives. And she gets to spend a lot of time listening to and collecting oral histories from around the state, which sounds like a pretty amazing way to spend your days listening to people's stories. I'm excited to introduce you to Sarah, not just because she has great connections and stories about the state of North Dakota, but because she's got pretty deep North Dakota roots herself. Enjoy my conversation with Sarah Walker. Sarah, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to get to know you and your story. Um I'd love for you just to tell us a little bit about your family of origin, like where you grew up and what kind of a family you grew up in.

Sarah Walker: 2:05

Sure. Um, I live in Bismarck and have always lived in Bismarck, North Dakota, the capital city. Um, my mom's side came from North Dakota. Um, but before that, we were uh Germans from Russia and Germans. She's uh very very much a part of the the German from Russian population that is pretty common in this state. When I was younger, um I had a pretty uh it felt very normal living here because uh this is, like I said, the capital city and it feels like a big town and a small town at the same time. How do I say that? It is um a smaller community than many other capitals and many of the bigger cities around the United States, but um, it's one of the largest communities here in North Dakota. So uh we feel very much like we're in a larger city living here, but it's also kind of a small town feel. Um, as an example, my supervisor here at the Historical Society is also from North Dakota. Every time that he uh that he runs into someone from his area of the state, he knows if they play class B basketball, who played um what instruments he knows about their family, he knows where they're from. It's the same case for my family. Um, my mom is from the other side of the state. And um whenever we run into anybody from that region, she knows their family, she knows their neighbors, she knows what they did. Um, so there's a very much a small town feel, but um we're an urban setting here, which I love that's really nice. Yeah.

Crista Cowan: 3:59

Yeah. I'm based in Utah. I've lived here for 30 years now, but I grew up in Los Angeles, so a very big city. We moved quite a bit when I was growing up. Um, you know, I went to two junior highs and two high schools and kind of worked our way up the west coast, and then I ended up here in Utah. But um, but yeah, like I love traveling. I've visited all 50 states, and one summer I realized I had never been to North Dakota or South Dakota, and my brother had never been to Iowa. And so my mom and my sister, and my brother, and I hopped in the car and and made a road trip out of it for about a week, and it was delightful. Oh, that's so nice.

Sarah Walker: 4:39

Yeah. Um we are frequently amongst the last states visited. Um, and so that doesn't necessarily surprise me. Uh actually, I you are a little up on me. I've been to 48 of the states. Um, we traveled a lot quite a bit as well. And I think partly that came from my dad's side. He's from from Seattle, Washington, but they they traveled all over. And so uh when he and my mom got married, I think that they traveled quite a bit and they took us along as we uh came along.

Crista Cowan: 5:14

So your dad was raised in Seattle, and your mom was raised in the western western part of North Dakota. Is that did I get my geography right?

Sarah Walker: 5:22

Middle to eastern part of North Dakota.

Crista Cowan: 5:26

Okay. And so how did your parents meet?

Sarah Walker: 5:29

They met in Bismarck. My dad came here for a job. Um, he was a meteorologist, and my mom had come to Bismarck because it was a local or it's the nearby larger city. So as she um she came out and went to uh college here and then got a job out here as well. So they met in Bismarck and then um I don't think that my dad intended to stay in North Dakota, uh, but he's been here ever since. I know a few years back he said to me, I've been here longer than I've lived any uh other place, um which is kind of interesting to think about. We all kind of get to that point, I think, where we've been in one place more than any other, whether it's where we're from or not. Um, so yeah, they they met through a a mutual friend and um have just made their home here.

Crista Cowan: 6:26

I love that. It's so interesting because you're right. Like I, when people ask me where I'm from, I say Los Angeles, because both of my parents were born and raised there. My grandparents lived there until my grandmother passed just in 2018. And so that was always kind of home base. But we started moving when I was 13. We lived in, you know, we lived in Central California, then we lived in Portland, then we lived up in Washington. Yeah. I I went to school in Idaho and Utah. I lived in New York for a little while. Like, but and I've lived here in this same town, in you know, little town in Utah for over 20 years now. Yeah. But I still tell people I'm from Los Angeles. Maybe I'm really from Utah. Okay. Uh so your mom fancies herself a little bit of a genealogist, yes?

Sarah Walker: 7:17

Yes. She has been our family genealogist for years. Um, in fact, we traveled a lot, like I said. A lot of those trips were to cemeteries or to um family history centers where we did research. We went to Germany in 2000 as a family and went to um a town that her family was from. And actually uh the her surname, that family is a local hero in that community. So when she told them her name, they like ushered us into this private room and fed us drinks, and they were really excited to talk to her in German, which she was the only one who could speak. So the rest of us kind of sat there and smiled and nodded, but they were so kind to us. Um, yeah. So we we've traveled and and looked at history centers and done research all over.

Crista Cowan: 8:19

So, so you kind of um couldn't help but get into the career with that kind of an upbringing and that kind of a mother with that interest. I think it seems natural that you went the career path that you did. Yes.

Sarah Walker: 8:31

Yeah, I don't think that I ever thought I was going to go into this as a career, um, working at a historical society and helping people do their research, but it's one of the most rewarding things that I can think of. All of the work that we do here is so rewarding. Um, connecting people to their past, connecting people to relatives they maybe didn't know they had. Um, I actually started as an intern here. And I would definitely say that her interests helped me to know a little bit more about what I might be doing in this position. Um, so as an intern, I remember helping a couple from California who had family who passed away here and they did not know where. Um, we found the where the cemetery was that the person was buried in, and they were able to erect a tombstone for that person that had not been there before. And um, they they cried in the reading room. And we we see that happen quite frequently. And I actually I tear up too because I I'm an emotional crier as well. I I definitely um tear up when I see others crying, but um, it like you can just see how much care, like you found somebody who is part of your family who's been lost. Um, it's so amazing. I'm really lucky to be in this field. And I I don't think that people always realize that this is an option out there or what kind of tools there are, or any of those uh those things. So yeah, I I mean it's really cool. It's really cool that I've actually even been able to help my mom now find some things. Uh, she'll come to me with questions because she, because I work here and know some of our resources that she maybe doesn't.

Crista Cowan: 10:23

Yeah. Yeah. So as you think about growing up in a household with a mother who had this interest, were there stories that she shared? I'm like, obviously, she took you on trips, but were there actual stories that she shared with you uh about her family stories?

Sarah Walker: 10:38

Absolutely. In fact, that was what my biggest interest was anyway. From the time that I was little, I always wanted to know about um our lives, my life. I know my birth story front and back, um, my brother's story of his birth front and back, um, and just some of the different stories that that are of their lives. Uh, like um I've always heard this story from my mom about my grandfather. He he was older um than average, than the average age for a grandfather for my generation, for my class. Um, so he passed away before I was born. And all I have of him are stories. And I loved hearing stories about him. Uh so this one story I hear heard a lot was about um when he was a young man and he was drafted into World War One. Uh, he I think was a pretty stoic guy. Just all of the stories I've heard about him. Um, I think he really just took things in stride, did what he thought he just had to do, and kind of just went where fate took him. Um, so he went to get everything ready. He was a farmer, which is again very common in this area. And um the story as I have heard it is that the last day before he was going to leave town, he went and checked his mail, and his neighbor had gone in and said, You can't take this man. He's a bachelor and a farmer, and we need him to help here. And so he actually got a reprieve. He didn't have to serve, and it's all because of this neighbor who uh who made sure that he didn't go. And I mean, I personally kind of hold the belief that if he had gone, he probably wouldn't have survived. He wasn't married at that time, and then I maybe wouldn't be here. So maybe that's a romantic way of looking at it, but I I think it's it's definitely a possibility. So um it's it's really cool to see something like that and see how it can affect your life. Um, and just a very interesting story, I think.

Crista Cowan: 13:04

Yeah, yeah. You know what? The farm farmers are kind of the backbone of this country. And during war times in particular, you still have to feed the country. And so that was a a common reason for people staying on the home front, was to be able to keep running those farms. But the fact that he already had that established at his age, that's pretty remarkable as well. Um, so he is was he the immigrant, or was it a generation or two earlier?

Sarah Walker: 13:33

So he was born in 1909. And I'm sorry, he immigrated in 1909. He was born in 1899. He was still your grandfather. He's my grandfather, yeah. That's crazy. Um, he was in his 40s when he got married. My mom was third of five. Um so like we definitely, and then my parents were a little older when they got married. Um, I was a little older when I got married. I just had kids. So I like just had kids this year and 2022. His uh great-grandchildren, and he was born in 1899. So we've you've definitely got a stretched out uh family history on that side. Um, yeah, he came over with his, I believe it was with his aunt and uncle. I don't believe his parents came across, if I'm remembering my history correctly. You know, like I said, my mom is the genealogist, so she has all of these details specifically. But uh they were in Russia. Um, so my my maternal grandfather, his family, um, they were the Germans from Russia side. And then my maternal grandmother's side, they were kind of more from the Germany, just straight up Germany, not necessarily German from Russia. And um, my grandparents actually spoke two different dialects of Germany, of German, which um my parents or my mother spoke at home with her brothers and sisters. So they they grew up speaking German and they knew both dialects, I guess. Um, when we were on that trip to Germany, um, people asked her where she was from in Germany because they they thought that she was from there, which is kind of funny.

Crista Cowan: 15:25

Isn't that so interesting? Yeah, like so. I have a great grandmother who was born in Dallas, Texas, but her parents were both German immigrants. And so German was her first language. And she went to German church. And during her um grammar school years, the local community was all German. So the school was in German, and she didn't learn English until you know she was six or seven years old. And it's so interesting because then you look at her younger sister, who's much younger than she is. My great-grandmother spoke with a German accent the day she died, born in Dallas, Texas. Her younger sister spoke with the biggest Texas twang you've ever heard. So even within that same household in that same family, those experiences of those immigrant children are so different, right? Because they're just raised with that as part of their household. And and yet some families have a very different experience. Some families they want to assimilate quickly, they want their children only to speak English. But you know, the the children become the bridge for the parents into the local communities as they um settle in. And and it's just interesting how different different immigrant populations choose to uh to approach that.

Sarah Walker: 16:40

Yeah. Um that that is interesting. Like you said, I know that that can be the case where they will use the children to speak on their behalf. Um, in this case, uh it seems that both of my grandparents also spoke English. They just kind of spoke German at home. And my mom also learned English in school.

Crista Cowan: 17:01

So your grandfather immigrated around 10 or 11 years old with an aunt and her uncle. And then your grandmother, how old was she when she immigrated?

Sarah Walker: 17:09

She was born in North Dakota.

Crista Cowan: 17:11

Oh, okay.

Sarah Walker: 17:11

So her parents were immigrants? Yes. Yep. Yeah. So kind of a a weird matchup. And then they were actually um working on neighboring farms, and that's how they how they met. So I do too.

Crista Cowan: 17:27

I think that's so for people who aren't familiar with the difference between being from Germany and being a German from Russia, can you explain that a little bit?

Sarah Walker: 17:37

Oh, yes. Um, so and that's a huge thing around here because we definitely have both of those populations. Um, a German from Russia, they had settled, stopped in Russia before coming to America. Um, so they were Germans, but they lived in Russia for some amount of time. Whereas Germans just came from Germany. They didn't have that stop off. And a lot of the reason why they went into Russia was to get land, which is why they came to America as well, to get that land and start farming and doing different industries and finding ways to have um the ability to live a good and healthy and successful life. And they met with really often very hard conditions, especially like in Russia, they had very hard conditions, um, harsh land and weather and all of that. When they came to North Dakota, we we do have great land for farming, but we also have the harsh weather. So they were kind of starting fresh. Um, but it's a beautiful place. North Dakota is wonderful.

Crista Cowan: 18:56

And what what is it that's farmed there?

Sarah Walker: 18:59

Um, all sorts of things. Um we are known for wheat. Um and uh I although it's not really farmed, I have to say um that honey is uh one of our biggest industries as well now. Um I believe we're number one in the country for honey producing.

Crista Cowan: 19:21

Wow, I would imagine I that's that's kind of surprising to me because the bees have to survive the winter, right?

Sarah Walker: 19:28

Well, they they can winter in various places, but I mean yeah, yeah. But we are a huge producer of honey. Um we have sunflowers, um just different kinds of I'm trying to think of some of the other items, oats, barley, um, lentils now, I believe are our bigger, um, some of the beans.

Crista Cowan: 19:52

Um interesting. So interesting. I love that. So the one of my favorite books, this is total tangent, but one of my favorite books is called The Eight, and it's by a woman named Catherine Neville. And she talks about um Catherine the Great. Part of the story is about Catherine the Great, who was the Empress of Russia, of course. And one of the reasons that so many Germans and so many Jewish people ended up in Russia was because she had what they she called the pale of the settlement. So it was the western boundary of the country that was not overly populated, and she wanted to protect her borders, essentially. So she opened it up as farmland and invited Germans and Poles and, you know, anybody who wanted to come and help farm that land to settle it. And so that was in the 1700s. So you've actually got like sometimes two and three and four generations of people living there before they start immigrating out to you know to other places. And and it's fascinating to me always that the immigrant populations often choose land that is familiar to them. Yeah. Right. Oh so they farmed that land in Russia that they knew what to grow and how to grow it. And then they came to North Dakota and they're growing similar crops in a similar climate and similar soil. Um, and you you see that with that population, you see that with you know this the Scottish people who immigrated to North Carolina. And, you know, like you start to look at the different populations and why they settled in certain places, and often it had to do with the dirt and the temperature.

Sarah Walker: 21:36

Yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Absolutely. Um, and like I said, we have a huge population here of German Russians um and of Germans. So this was definitely an area. And then, of course, as more people would settle here, family would say, Hey, come join us. So then you draw more that way as well. You definitely see those communities that seem to be completely one family, three families maybe.

Crista Cowan: 22:05

Yeah. So as you think about your mom and her growing up experience, like growing up bilingual, growing up in a community that was so influenced by that German culture, like you know, how do you think that North Dakota like shaped her identity? Like, was there other influence or what did they kind of keep to themselves within that community?

Sarah Walker: 22:29

Um, there were other influences. I don't know how much they would have come into um her sphere, but I know that I've heard about the one Scandinavian family that lived in the area, you know, um, another population in North Dakota that can be quite large, but not necessarily in certain communities. Um and like different kinds of churches and just different things in her in her small town. Um and I would say for my mom specifically, she married somebody who was a traveler and had been in many other places, and then she was traveling a lot more because of that. So I think that she uh definitely was shaped by her upbringing in the way that she was raised. Um, she is definitely still kind of a part of that community. She still speaks German, she um still knows everybody from that town um and their children. And uh we run into somebody and they know each other somehow or we're related somehow. Um, that happens all the time.

Crista Cowan: 23:48

And then and then does that carry over not just from the small town community feel and the language, but does that carry into any other kinds of cultural traditions or food or like what does that look like in your family?

Sarah Walker: 24:01

There's a cookie that's very common around here. It's a fafanousa, and that's like pepper nut. That's literally what it translates to. My grandfather had one recipe, and my grandmother had one recipe, and they are a completely different cookie. Um, my grandfather's recipe is like very peppery tasting. It was his favorite cookie. He apparently taught my grandmother how to make them because he loved them so much. It's like a little tiny cookie speckled with pepper. It's got a little bit of a kick, very interesting kind of cookie. Um, not very well known around here as that. My grandmother's cookie recipe is more well known around this area, but not necessarily outside of like North Dakota. And that is like a cookie that's um a little bit bigger and uh covered in powdered sugar, has a little bit of cocoa. Like it's a completely different cookie, and they're both called spafanoosa, they're both a pepper nut cookie. Um, so they had these kind of like dueling um customs and traditions sometimes. Um, but we still honor them in many ways. Um, my mom grew up, uh, we we were Lutheran and um before Easter uh they would always eat egg noodles and like stewed prunes. That was their specific meal that they would eat every like Good Friday. She still makes it, still does it. I can't say that I do, but I think about it every Good Friday. Um, and then there are other things like that um that just are kind of traditional. But I think for us, a lot of what is remembered are those stories. And I know lots of stories about my family.

Crista Cowan: 25:58

You just had children, you said. Yeah. Did I hear you had twins? I had twin boys, yeah. Bless your heart. And they're your first. They're my first. Just jumping, jumping right into it. So as you think about kind of what you want to pass on to them, is there like a particular story that you know from your family history that you're like, I want to make sure I pass that story on for sure.

Sarah Walker: 26:25

A lot about my grandfather. Like I said, I really know him through the stories about him. And I think he was just an incredible person. I think any immigrant coming to America at any time, you're coming to a place you don't really know, possibly speaking a language you don't know, um, trying to do something with your life that's different from where you've left, whether it's persecution or um just opportunity. Um it's amazing how many of us actually have that kind of courage um and fortitude to keep going with it. So, I mean, he was 10 when he came. He didn't come with his parents, and he was a minor and had to kind of go along with the family. Um, and maybe he wouldn't have come to North Dakota. I know he was really sick of traveling by the time he was done. Uh, from everything that my mom has said about him. He frequently would say, I've seen enough. I don't need to go any more places because that's a long journey. He was an inquisitive little uh kid. Um, when he was still in Russia, he apparently wanted to try and grow a peach tree. And he like threw a peach pit into a hole. He was 10 or under. So, like a very deep hole. And uh he would tell the story to his kids and then laugh about it and say, I wonder if there is a peach tree growing in Russia.

Crista Cowan: 28:06

He didn't he didn't stay there long enough to see the fruit, right?

Sarah Walker: 28:11

Um, even the story of like how the cookies are different um between him and my grandmother, how they met, uh, different things like that. I just uh love to think about the person he was. So I feel like every story I know about him, I would, I would pass on. In fact, I would say the story for me is the the biggest thing. I am definitely um very story-based, even here in the work that I do at the State Historical Society of North Dakota. Um, I'm an oral historian here, and I get a lot of those oral histories and a lot of those stories from different people in the state. And um I've gotten through my mother. Some of them are family. Um, so that's been that's been really interesting. But it's those stories that really like help to create the pic the bigger picture.

Crista Cowan: 29:05

And what a fascinating job you have, like to be able to like invest in people's family stories and see those connections. And then because of your access, I suspect that you have that kind of broader vision than most people have when they're just looking at their own family stories.

Sarah Walker: 29:21

Yeah, it's fascinating to see how these kind of click into the broader history of what's going on. Um, I shared the story of my grandfather and being drafted and not being able, or and then the neighbor keeping him from going into service. Um, it seems like a very little thing, but I came across an article from that time period talking about farmers um being exempt, um, not having to go and serve. And it was really on a broader scale of the whole United States. And I just thought, oh my gosh, this is this is it. This is what happened. He didn't have to serve because this was happening. And I could read articles about what everybody was thinking at that time. But to actually be able to access like the newspapers and oral histories and collections where you can really see that happening in what was the present of that person, it's such a different experience. Um the work here is incredible. Archives in general are incredible. I I am so lucky to be working where I am.

Crista Cowan: 30:31

You are, you are so much. And as a genealogist, I am so grateful to the archivist community for all of the work that they have done. And not just the work that they continue to do, but the work that has been done for, you know, hundreds of years in some cases. Yeah, absolutely. As somebody who's involved in oral history, uh, do you have any advice for people who are looking to conduct oral history interviews with their family members to help kind of extract those family stories? I think sometimes people are hesitant to talk or they don't know how to tell a story. Or so what advice do you have for people?

Sarah Walker: 31:07

Oh, great question. Um, it can be so difficult sometimes. Um, I would say start off with figuring out what you want to talk about. Um, have kind of a plan, a plan of action. Create some questions, maybe even talk to them or give them some sort of a sheet of pre-interview questions so that you can create those questions because you never know um what stories you might miss if you don't really know what to ask. Um, encourage people to feel free to talk. Um, don't cut them off after a sentence. Um, really think of it as a conversation and um find out their comfort level and then also take it in small bites. You don't have to do everything all at once. And it is much harder to do it all at once. It's a lot easier for you and the person you're interviewing to do those smaller chunks. Um, so those are just some of the things that I would suggest to start off with in planning some sort of oral history with family or others.

Crista Cowan: 32:23

Yeah, and I love that advice that like be really specific about what you want them to talk about. One of my favorite opening questions for everybody is tell me the story of how your parents met. Because it's not too personal. It's not, oh, how did you and your spouse meet? It's it's a little bit more removed. And it's something that if they know the story, they can get excited about. And then often that leads into other things. So having kind of an opening softball question.

Sarah Walker: 32:51

Yes. Yes, I completely agree with that. I frequently start off my interviews with questions about childhood, but kind of like very somewhat removed. Like, tell me about your family.

Crista Cowan: 33:06

I love that. Well, as you think about preserving North Dakota stories as your career and your own deep roots in North Dakota, what does that mean to you?

Sarah Walker: 33:16

I love a lot about this state. Um the history is fascinating. Um my family is here. I mean, really honestly, like I think of North Dakota and I think this is this is home. This is where I belong. Um, I love to travel. I love visiting other places. Uh I have so much fun, but um, I always want to come back here. And I mentioned we traveled a lot when I was younger. Um, we traveled almost everywhere by RV, actually, which is kind of a whole other thing. But um we would always come into Bismarck late at night when we would return. Um, and we'd come up this rise, and there would be the lights of the city just shining up into the air, and it was very familiar. And we don't have a lot of tall buildings. Our Capitol building is one of the tallest buildings um here, so you can definitely see it. It's visible. Um, even at night, sometimes there are lights on the Capitol. Um, so like just kind of this whole cityscape with that structure kind of visible in the background. I just like it, just felt right. It was our our invitation to come back home. Um, and for me, that that's kind of what I think of every time I think of leaving um for travel, for pleasure, for work, whatever. When I'm coming back home, I just like feel the city, the state enveloping me. And I'm just I'm I'm home.

Crista Cowan: 34:59

That's so beautiful. Thank you for that. And thank you for sharing North Dakota with all of us. I appreciate it.

Sarah Walker: 35:06

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Crista Cowan: 35:10

Studio sponsored by Ancestry.