Simon Pearce: 0:02

Basically they go out to Philippoli and he takes part in the landing on the 20th of April. I've been able to piece together their movements through the war diaries that we have on ancestry and I can see one in front of me now the day that he died, on the 28th of June 1915, the war diary kind of gives you a blow-by-blow account of what's happening. I find it really moving when I read through it because it sort of sends chills down my spine.

Crista Cowan: 0:25

Stories that Live In Us is a podcast that inspires you to form deep connections with your family, past, present and future. I'm Krista Cowan, known online as the Barefoot Genealogist. I've spent my whole life discovering the power of family history and I know that sharing the stories that live in you can change everything. Here in the United States, we spend a lot of time, I think, talking about World War II veterans, because many of us grew up with them. Both of my grandfathers served in World War II, but I have a great grandfather who served in World War I. I never knew him. My dad never knew him. He died before my dad was even born. But the stories that are available to us about World War I are no less compelling as we start to understand the lives of those who served.

Crista Cowan: 1:21

Here in the US, we also don't hear a lot about Anzac Day. Here in the US, we also don't hear a lot about Anzac Day. Anzac Day is celebrated primarily in Australia and New Zealand around April 25th. As a matter of fact, this year is the 110th anniversary of that commemoration, which centers around Gallipoli and that particular battle in World War I. My guest today is Simon Pearce. He is an ancestry colleague who works out of our London office, but his real passion is military history, and that passion for military history has led him to an ancestor who served at Gallipoli in that particular war, and that ancestor, though he never knew him personally, has become one of his close family members because of the stories he's uncovered. I hope you'll enjoy my conversation with Simon Pearce, so thank you so much for being here. I'm excited to have this conversation with you. Well, I would love to hear a little bit about your origin story into family history.

Simon Pearce: 2:23

Yeah, thank you, I mean, yes, thanks. History yeah, thank you, I mean, yes, thanks. First of all, thank you for having me. It really is an honor to speak to you and get to talk about family history and something you know, a passion that we share.

Simon Pearce: 2:33

But in terms of my origins, like many people, I've always loved history and I studied history and it really kind of sparked my love for research. That was before I even got into genealogy. It and it really kind of sparked my love for research. That was before I even got into genealogy. It was research that I loved and one day I just I remember doing a school project on an ancestor who served during the First World War I started digging into his life and finding record after record. I said, hey, wait a second, this is really fun, this is really interesting. And that just sparked my love for family history really and military research that I now specialize in and I think I owe so much to that moment. That ancestor and that kind of type of research has led me to where I am. So it all started with an ancestor really.

Crista Cowan: 3:18

That's amazing. Who is that ancestor and how are you related to them?

Simon Pearce: 3:22

Well, we can hopefully talk quite a lot about him, okay, but it's my or possibly but my great, great uncle and he's howard george cheeseman, and he was born in 1890 and he served during the first world war and, very sadly, he was killed during the first world war at gallipoli in 1915 and, as I mentioned, I just I couldn't believe what there was out there to find about him. And this is 2007 and you know, in the nearly 20 years that I've been researching I'm sure you found this and your listeners as well that more and more records have been released and more and more of these records have told me more about his life, about his military service. But back then I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that I could find out this information about a family member, you know, 100, 120 or 100 or so years ago and it was just amazing for me and, yeah, it's really, it's really moving, it's quite personal for our family, like my aunt is really, you know, feels really passionately about him as well.

Simon Pearce: 4:16

We both researched his life. We have memorabilia, diaries, photos, postcards relating to him and the family that, when I look at, kind of makes me feel like I have a connection to him in some ways, you know, and I'm sure again, I'm sure you can relate to that, and that's because I don't have a huge amount of his, his letters or photos. I only have two photos a postcard he's written um, and so when I look at those and I look at these family history records, they make me feel connected to him, I think having researched him for so long as well, I think you do get that.

Simon Pearce: 4:48

You do feel like you almost feel like you know them, and I feel very sad because he lost his life during the First World War at such a young age. I feel proud of him, but I also feel like I owe him a lot, because it was through researching him that I realized I'm going to do this as a job and as a career.

Crista Cowan: 5:09

And it kind of led to that. That's amazing. I love that and I think for a lot, of, a lot of us who get really involved in family history, it's that diving deep into the life of a person that they become so real to us and we do feel that connection. I love that. So back then when you were researching him you live just outside of London were you traveling to the National Archives, like where were you going?

Simon Pearce: 5:29

to view your records or were you just making do with what was available online at the time? Yeah, I found some records online, but I was, you're right. I was at university at the time in South Hampton, which is where I'm from as well, where I was born, and so I was studying and doing my research for my studies in history, but then also doing this on the site, like researching his life. And, you're quite right, I went to the National Archives in Kew, just outside of London, and I was finding these incredible contextual records that told me about the battles he served in. I remember finding a casualty list when he was wounded at the start of the war in Qintao in China, which is a really little-known theatre of the First World War that many people might not know about. The British and Japanese fought together the only time they fought together on land, as allies in the First World War, to capture a German port. He was wounded there. He received a gunshot wound to his face, and I remember going through these boxes and boxes of documents and finding a cash register and I think I remember my heart just skipped a beat when I saw him his name on this page, because you know you spend, as you know, hour after hour looking for something, looking for a name, hoping you find something. I did finally find his name and I still remember that moment. Now this is almost 20 years ago and it was very moving and and sad as well to see that your ancestor was wounded. He wasn't killed there, but he was wounded. Just think what he went through.

Simon Pearce: 6:43

But then you know, as a researcher, you're thinking, wow, I found this out. You know, you plug away, you, you persevere and to find that record, it's so exciting. So, yes, I was going to the national archives. Then there was, there were records online on ancestry. But so much has been released in the last 10 or more years that coincide with the, the the hundred year centenary celebrations of the first world war, so lots more have come online. And there's so much online and so much on Ancestry. That's helped me learn about his service, whether it's medal records or the war diaries for his unit that tell me what they were doing day by day, and tell me what they were doing and experiencing on the day that he was killed, which is quite poignant too. So that's yeah. Back then, when I first started, it was trips to National Archives and the Imperial War Museum, which were really exciting, to go up to London as well and go into the big city if you like and go through the archives.

Crista Cowan: 7:32

It was really, really interesting. So you talked a little bit about some of those military records, but, as you think, about all the records in the UK that you use in your daily work or in your own family history research, do have any favorite set of records, or or maybe a few I mean the military records really stand out to me because I I mean, I'm really lucky that I get to do this for my job.

Simon Pearce: 7:54

So I I specialize in military research and I do a lot of work with our military website, forces, war records, um, and some of the records like the medal index cards which I have howard's medal he has two, actually Some soldiers did have two, if there were some spelling mistakes and their names too were generated. These are a really good source when you're researching British Army ancestors. They tell you their basic details, they tell you sometimes the first theater of war they entered. So for his was China the date, their rank, kind of clues. They're like the building blocks that once you find them, you can then use them to find them in other records. I still remember the first time I looked at that record. It was so exciting to think, wow, this is. This relates to the medals that he received, and I don't know where the medals are. My aunts and I have been trying to work it out. We think they, you know, passed down to his, his father. Maybe they were lost over time, who knows where they ended up. But but that kind of breaks my heart as well because I wish I knew where they were. But this medal document tells you the medals they were entitled to. So that's one of the records I really love.

Simon Pearce: 8:52

Another military record really useful but I can't, there isn't one for Howard is the British Army service records and maybe there are people watching that have used those Service records are amazing for researching military ancestors. They tell you when they joined up their trade, where they enlisted, the dates where they served. You know all these key information to kind of build out like a timeline of their service. But unfortunately the first world war, around about 60 percent of british army first world war service records were destroyed or badly damaged during the blitz in the Second World War and unfortunately Howard is in that 40 or so percent. So I don't have a service record. So that again I find really hard and strangely I still search the service record collection for his name just in the hope that it's in there. I know it isn't but it's a shame because there are so many clues, there's so much I want to know about his service that this record would tell me. But there are other records out there and I say that to people in my daily job when I'm helping, for example, social media or in face-to-face. There are other records you can use to fill in the gaps, you know, and all is not lost if you don't have that record. And I'm really lucky that I've been able to use lots of different military records to piece together his service. But that's the one that I find you know is such a shame because it would answer so many questions.

Simon Pearce: 10:11

You know he enlisted before the war, so he was a regular soldier. He didn't, you know, enlist like many did at the start of the war, with this kind of this patriotism, this excitement, you know, wanting to join in and not miss out. He actually joined up as a professional soldier in 1910. So it's kind of interesting four years before the war he enlisted, left his home in Kent in the east of England and decided to enlist with the South Wales Borderers for his regiment and he ended up in South Africa, then went to China and I often think and maybe this is something that others have thought when they research their military ancestors what it must have been like. For you know, my great-great uncle, who was from a working class family, probably had never left, as far as I can tell his county, probably hadn't left the nearby town, you know, as far as I can tell, and then all of a sudden he's in South Africa and then he's in China.

Simon Pearce: 11:01

What a culture shock that must have been to be, you know, for many of these soldiers, not just before the war but in the First World War ending up even in France. You know, it's so different, the culture in many respects, and I wonder what that must have been like. It must have been exciting to an extent, you know, being able to travel and see parts of the world. That then you probably it must have been quite a shock as well to the cistern, and I often think about that, something that strikes me when I'm researching as well what it must have been like, and I wish I had his thoughts or letters or diaries.

Simon Pearce: 11:31

The only thing I do have and I often think about this quite a lot is I have a postcard that my grandmother gave me that she safely kept His sister, my great-grandmother Ellen. She wrote to him when he was stationed in South Africa in 1910. The postcard is of the village church in Biersted where they were born, and it's just a note to him saying you know, I'm still alive, I'm doing well. It was a really short, you know. Just sorry for the short note, but it's kind of letting him know that she's okay and he must have received it because it's been marked, it's been franked. Um, he must have.

Simon Pearce: 12:04

And I wonder how did that get home to her? How did my grab mother end up with that? Did he bring it home? And when he's on the leave, was it part of his possessions that, when he was killed, was sent back? But I like to think that I'm holding, you know, I'm holding something that he's held and he's read and I feel a connection and that's that's something really special to me and it kind of there's some great clues on that card as well His number, his address, his unit, which also helped me find him in other collections. So it kind of underlines to me how important items in our personal collections whether it's a diary, whether it's a photograph, a letter how much they can help you then with your research in the records too. So that's one of my real treasured possessions, that postcard.

Crista Cowan: 12:40

That's amazing that you have that and yeah, it's something that would seem so innocuous to some people just a postcard but the fact that there are clues even in something so simple that could help tell more of his story is, I think, a really important point when you think about him and you know you mentioned you were studying history you'd always had an interest in history I'm going to ask kind of a chicken and the egg question right, did you become interested in military history because you found Howard and started learning more about his life, or do you think he's so important?

Simon Pearce: 13:20

to you because of your interest in military history. Oh, wow, that is a really good question. I love that. I think he's so important because I've always I've been interested for a long time in military history I guess because my uncles were in the army and that kind of galvanized my, my interest and I've always read military history and found that part of history really interesting. So I think I was always very much into military history. But then researching him gave me an extra connection and led to many other military like ancestors and family members too. So I think, um, researching him like galvanized even more my, my passion for military history. I love that question. I've never really thought about that before.

Crista Cowan: 13:54

That's fantastic well, yeah, I think about that a lot in my own life, like why, why I'm passionate about the things that I'm passionate about and why I feel so deeply connected to some of my ancestors, and sometimes one leads to the other and sometimes it's the ancestor that pulled me into the thing.

Crista Cowan: 14:11

So it just kind of depends on what clicks with us and where we are in our lives when that happens and kind of what we've been surrounded with. As you think about the story of Howard, right, and you know this well as we research the lives of the individuals in our family tree, the way that we gather that information is not linear to their life. Sometimes we, you know, we learn about their death and then we hear a story from grandma and then we dig into the records and we find, and the pieces kind of come together, all you know, in a mishmash of information. And it's always interesting to me how the story starts to frame itself in our mind with every new piece of information. But then if you have to tell the story, you want to tell it in a way that is kind of a compelling arc of their life or a particular experience from their life. So if you were to tell the story of Howard. I would love to hear you how you would tell that.

Simon Pearce: 15:16

I guess I would always start with his military service, because that's where I started. But I guess that in my mind I'd want to start with. You know, he was born. He was born in 1890 in Kent and then, you know, two years later his sister, my great grandmother, was born. So I guess I would I mean, naturally you'd start with his birth and his story, but because I started with his military service, because that's such a huge part of his life and because that's such a huge part of his life and because that's where most of the records, like you know, most of the records I found would be starting his military service. But if I was to tell a story, I would you know I'd start with his birth.

Simon Pearce: 15:52

He was born in Kent, to, yeah, to, and very sad, you know, to Alfred and Rosa. Alfred was a carpenter. Two years later his sister, my great-grandmother Ellen, was born and really sadly, their mother died in 1896. She was only 33. So I think that, you know, at the age of six or five and a half six, he'd lost his mother and, from what my aunt Helen is great at, she's one of the custodians, I guess, of the family stories and has done a fantastic job of listening and keeping these memories of life and she tells me from what she spoke to her and her grandmother how, uh, sister, that when the father remarried the stepmother maybe there wasn't as great a relationship with the stepmother, that she went on to have more children with, with, with his father, but it wasn't a great relationship and I wonder if that's why he eventually, at the age of 18, left and joined the army. So you know he spent time growing up in kent.

Simon Pearce: 16:43

Family moved from beerstead a little bit further north to chatham or just outside chatham where there was a huge naval docks where they were repairing and building ships. I, his occupation before he joined the army was a or. On the 1911 census when he was in the army it said his civilian occupation was a, a shop assistant, which makes me think working in a workshop. You know his father was a carpenter. I wouldn't be surprised if he was his father's apprentice and was working with him in that way. So very much you know he probably left school, went to work, probably working with his father and learning his father's trade.

Simon Pearce: 17:15

And perhaps the military the South Wales border was stationed in the area where he was living was stationed in Chatham at the time Probably knew that and went and enlisted before. Well, this is an opportunity for a new you know new life, if you like, a new experience. And I like to think that maybe that was what he was he was looking for because they were stationed in although here's south wales, I think they stationed in wales well, actually they were in in kent, in in chatham at the time, and he, he must have gone and enlisted in Fort Worth. This is an opportunity for for traveling, to see the world and to do things that maybe someone of his background wouldn't have been able to do in in 1910. So, um, yeah, that that's, and, and so that's his sort of civilian like, if you like. And I gathered those clues through censuses, through some of the things that my, my aunt Helen has told me, because I think he was very close to my great-grandmother, who's also really interesting Maybe we'll talk about her later but she was also a fascinating woman.

Crista Cowan: 18:07

But then he joins the army.

Simon Pearce: 18:08

He joins the army in around about April May 1910. Now I don't have his service record, which is really frustrating, but at this time they were issuing army numbers in blocks so I've used there's a really good website out there that helps you do this but time that he enlisted? So he enlisted around about April May 1910. I've got some amazing photos of him, I think shortly after he enlisted in uniform, which is a really beautiful photo and one I think that was taken at the start of the First World War, and they were stationed in South Africa and then they were in China and when the First World War breaks out they aren't sent to the Western Front. His unit is stationed in China and they're sent about 500 kilometers south to Qingdao, which is a port which was a German port at the time.

Simon Pearce: 18:55

So it's obviously a very colonial area, colonial possessions all over Asia and there were fears that the Germans would use this port to maybe attack Allied shipping in the area. Britain and Japan, who were allies at this time, were fearful of German intentions in the region so they sent a force, which included my and Howard's unit, to take the port. That is really interesting because it's a really little-known part of the First World War. Many people may say, okay, it wasn't the most important part. It maybe strategically wasn't seen as the kind of be-all and end-all. But my ancestor was there. He was fighting in this really little-known battle where you had British, you had Indian soldiers, japanese soldiers fighting together and they did eventually take the port, I think by November. I think around about 14 of the British soldiers were killed, I think 13, 14 out there. And yeah, howard was wounded. He received a minor gunshot wound to his face.

Simon Pearce: 19:50

That I found at the National Archives and I really was able to piece together the movements through newspapers, newspaper clippings, through what I read in regimental histories, that kind of thing, just to work out what were they doing, what were they experiencing out there. It's a really interesting battle and then when that was over, they were sent back to the UBK, I guess, thinking they were probably going to be sent to the western front to trench warfare. That was very much going on by this point. Then in late 1914 and they had a bit of rest, uh and and uh, training etc. In the middle of england, in the midlands.

Simon Pearce: 20:25

I found a really interesting record. So it gets to um march 1915 and they're sent off on their next posting to be like South Wales border, as part of the 29th Division and they're sent to Gallipoli, which is Turkey, to fight against the Ottoman Empire, with the aim of landing on the 25th of April 1915. It's gone down in history as Anzac Day. It's really really, really important to Australians and New Zealanders in their history, but there was also British units there too. So they're sent there but we don't know they're going there when they're heading over. The aim is to kind of, I guess, take Constantinople, which is now Istanbul, and knock the Ottoman Empire out of the war. Germany's ally.

Simon Pearce: 21:09

I think, again, they you know german, germany's ally, I think again, they had no idea they were going there, um, but what is really interesting, and I guess jumping forward to jump back after he was killed, because he was very sadly killed there I found a red cross uh record, because there's a really good prisoner of war archive maintained by the red cross, which not only has prisoner of war documents, it also has records relating to people that were missing in action, because many people, uh sadly, were missing in action there. There they were maybe not located on the battlefield and their relatives would like to the red cross in the hope, in this kind of last-ditch hope, that their ancestor may, that their relative may have been a prisoner of war and the news haven't looked back. So there's a document of him in this archive of the International Committee of the Red Cross which was sent in by I think it's Miss Rigby or Miss Healy, I think it is or Rugby, in the Midlands where they were stationed, asking where he was, and I can only think that maybe this was someone he got to know while he was in the Midlands. My aunt seems to remember the talk of he maybe had like a sweetheart back home. Was it her, because I know that the South West borders were actually billeted with in-family homes at this time, I think, through lack of accommodation. So basically this person, this family that I think they may have been stationed with before going to Gallipoli, was writing for the Red Cross saying well, you know, the last time we heard of them was on this date and what's happened to him? So that's another strand to it that makes me want to research. I think it's Miss Healy is her name literally on this document, and what's her story? But basically they go out to Gallipoli, he takes parks in the landing on the 25th of April.

Simon Pearce: 22:47

They've been able to piece together their movements through the war diaries that we have on ancestry and I can see one in front of me now For the day that he died, on the 28th of June 1915,. The war diary kind of gives you a blow-by-blow account of what's happening and I find it really moving when I read through it because it sort of sends chills down my spine Because this is the closest I'm going to get to understanding what happened to me. It doesn't say such and such was killed on this day or this, but it doesn't name individual soldiers, but it certainly it gives you an insight into what was happening and even when I you know, I look at it now, I can see that the battalion left their trenches trenches in advance to attack through a, a, a perfect hail of shrapnel and artillery. And you think, wow, and I read through the different steps and I think, was this the moment that you sadly lost this bike, or was it this moment, or was it when they finally got to the trenches? And the war diaries allow you to think like that. They're a very, they're quite a moving source, of course, if you're looking at the diary for a day that someone was wounded or killed, but they're incredibly insightful.

Simon Pearce: 23:47

For anyone researching British Army ancestors in the First and Second World War, the war diaries are one of the best sources you can use to understand what was happening and I've used that to work out what he was doing on the 28th of June 1915, when he was killed at the Battle of Gully Ravine and sadly, like many soldiers that were killed at Gallipoli and in other parts of the First World War, his body was never recovered. So he was on the Hell's Memorial, a huge memorial on the Gallipoli Peninsula to those that had no known grave and someone very kindly last year who saw one of my posts on our Forces War Records Facebook page, the military website that Ancestry owns that I run, the Forces War Records Facebook page. She saw some of my posts about my great-great-uncle when she was in Gallipoli. She very, very kindly, um, put a photograph across of Howard, uh, on the memorial for me, which really when I saw that, really got that. That really pulled on the heartstrings because it was such a kind thing to do and, you know, to put his photo there. Um, I haven't been. I really want to go one day and pay my respects, but to think that she's put his photo on on that memorial was really moving to me and that's sort of where the story, um, I guess, ends in some respect um or his does, because you know he lost his life.

Simon Pearce: 24:58

But actually one, one final record that is really really special to me is um and I know I if I can read it to you, there's a diary entry and um, his sister ellen, my great grandmother. She kept a, an autograph book during the First World War and maybe we'll talk about that later, but she actually wrote a poem in her autograph book when Howard was killed. And I remember when my great-aunt who had this in her possession, who was really really close to me in about 2007, gave me the autograph book and told me I think there's a poem in there you'll find interesting. I remember reading it. I actually very made me cry when I read it because it's so emotional.

Simon Pearce: 25:39

She's my great-grandmother, who, obviously very close to her brother, wrote and these are from two, I think, american and Irish poets that she's copied, you know just their work. So in her, in her autograph book, and it says that death should come gently to one of gentle mold like thee, as light winds wandering through groves of bloom detach the delicate blossoms from the tree players like sweet eyes, calmly and without pain, and we will trust in God to see you again and fairly well. Yet think a while on one whose person bleeds to doubt thee, who now would rather trust thy smile and die with thee than live without thee. In memory of dear howard, killed in action in gallipoli, uh, at rest with god. 28 june 1915. Uh, I'm trying to read that without my glasses on, but it's uh, it's a very, um, uh, very emotional.

Simon Pearce: 26:30

When I read that I couldn't believe it and that again gives me a sort of connection to him and actually my aunt and I were looking at these over the weekend because these are some of my most treasured family history possessions. My great-grandmother and Howard's sister emphasized and instilled in her that we kind of keep his memory alive and that we you know we wear a poppy and we think about him all year round. But I remember it today, um kind of show respect to him and keep his memory alive and that's been really important. My aunt's been big driving force and in health and keep that alive and she mentions that she's really glad that she, that the howard sister, had met by this point my, my great-grandfather, and had him to help comfort her after her loss and they can both kind of have this. This family you know that I've descended from that can help keep their memory alive.

Simon Pearce: 27:13

So I thought my aunt's on that really well. But I'm conscious I've been talking a long time about howard's story but that's his story from start to finish. I guess that's um that if I was to tell his story, that's how I tell it and I'm still. I'm here now, over 100 years later, and hopefully I can keep his story alive and pass on to future generations, my daughter and hopefully future generations beyond that, through research and through keeping the story alive. So, yeah, someone that's really special to me.

Crista Cowan: 27:43

I love that you also bring up a really interesting point as you tell that story.

Crista Cowan: 27:48

I think sometimes we get really focused on especially as researchers, right, like we're researching the lives and we're looking for the records and we're trying to put all the pieces together and we can become almost obsessed with today. They came from families and communities and their death affected other people and the lives that they went on to lead and the way that they looked at the world, because that thing happened to them too. And you know Howard's story didn't end with Howard. Ellen carried that with her for the rest of her life and that now informs, like you said, 100 years later, kind of the way that you look at the world. And it's not just about keeping his memory alive, it's also just about understanding what happened to him and why the world was the way that it was that put him in that position, and like there's just so much wrapped up in that that when we tell a story, sometimes it's hard to confine it to the story of this person because of the ripple effects that those lives have.

Simon Pearce: 29:04

Oh yeah, I completely agree, and that's such a lovely way of framing it as well. But it is so true and you touch on something really important there as well, chris that it has an effect on so many people. I mean, even breaking away from howard's story, when I recently have been doing quite a lot of work on the 1921 census and how that affected the society, and we look at, like, the amount of war widows that have a court, you know, people, women, that record themselves as war widows, the amount of soldiers that, um, you know that that were killed during the first world war and left dependents and you see that in the census or even those that came back and were wounded or couldn't find work. And it's, you're right, it's it's those that were left behind, or those that were there when they returned to help them and help them through, because many came, you know, many were killed, but many survived and came back but would be affected the whole lives through what they experienced.

Simon Pearce: 29:50

And it's those as well that I want to keep their memory alive and pay my respects. Not just you, but many survived and came back but would be affected for the whole lives through what they experienced. It's those as well, that I want to keep their memory alive and pay my respects, not just remembering Sunday in November, but every November, but also throughout the year, just remembering and thinking about them regularly. You're right, the war, their service, had an impact not just on those that served but their families too. So, yes, that's a really really interesting point.

Crista Cowan: 30:14

Yeah, you mentioned that Ellen kept an autograph book. That's not something I'm familiar with, or maybe not something that is an American thing, so I'd love for you to explain a little bit about just what that was and why that was important for her and for you.

Simon Pearce: 30:29

Absolutely so. I remember when my great aunt was really positive, she gave them to me because different members of the family had sort of different, as you can imagine, different pieces of family memorabilia or maybe distributed after Ellen and my great grandfather asked away. So, um, ellen married dick and thomas in 1917 and they both had, I think they. They met around about 1950 so they both had autograph books which I think were fairly common then, maybe, uh, amongst um, most british people, um, and they would contain poems, notes, jokes, sketches, I think it was, you know, literally people they met, um, people they worked with, they crossed paths with they. They asked them to to leave an autograph, leave a note, and it helps that you know, at this time it was the first world war, so my great grandfather, dickon, was serving in british army. Um, he was, you know, coming into contact with so many different people. Ellen probably was too, uh, and actually she's really interesting. So at this she was working as a lady's mate to baroness oxy. So baroness oxy was the author of the scarlet pimpernel novels.

Simon Pearce: 31:42

Um lived in, had a lovely house in beerstead where ellen was born and ellen ended up being her lady's mate and they had quite a close relationship. We have some of their letters still surviving between them and obviously there was a class divide and a employer and employee divide but there was some tenderness there and that really comes through in the letters and I think in baron even attended her wedding in 1917, but my great-grandmother trowned with her to montecarlo and to monaco, umaco, in 1915, which would have been quite scary to do, to cross the channel, go across that time with a threat from German U-boats, threats of shipping. That's quite a scary thing to do. But for a young woman from a working-class background who, as I mentioned, hadn't left her really, hadn't really left her hometown before her own village, she's now in like the south of France and working you know, as a lady's maid.

Simon Pearce: 32:41

But what an experience I wish, I wish, I wish I could have asked her about it. You know, there's these things that I can imagine. Yourself and many people listening, watching think that I'd love to ask my, my, my ancestor about that, that I'd love to ask my, my, my ancestor about that. I'd love to ask my great-grandma, but I would love to ask her, like, what was it like? Like, what did just, can you describe it? Like? The smells, that the, the, the sunshine, that everything was, the colors. It just must have been incredible. So she was out there in 1915, which was where she learned that her brother had been killed. Um, and yeah, I, I don't know how she must have felt, but she um then returned to london with baroness oxley. He also had a home in london and we don't really know.

Simon Pearce: 33:22

My aunt and I were talking about this a lot over the weekend. It was really fun just to sort of talk about family history and go through memorabilia together. It was quite a special thing to do, um, and we're trying to work out when they met, how they, because because dickens was from kend as well, from maidstone, not very far from beer stead so they, they hailed, they came from fairly um close parts of the country, but they must have met maybe during in london when, when dickens was stationed with his union in london, um, but they married in 1917. I have a photo of their, their wedding photo, and I'm very lucky to have a wedding ring which is um in my possession. We were actually looking at it yesterday and my wife and I were looking at it and it was just really special quite small as well. She must have like quite, quite dainty fingers. It's quite small. When I look at it, and again I hold that and I look at the wedding photo, I think it's a real like connection to history. I find it. Maybe I overthink it, but I'm thinking I'm holding this wedding wedding ring that you're wearing in that photo in 1917, and so much is going on and um, that photo is amazing because that you know, you, my cousin on different side of the family, who specializes in um fashion of, uh, and and knows a lot about fashion and family history, helped me decipher. You know what people were wearing, what it tells you about them, um, what you can read into it, and the photo is amazing. You know, there's my great-grandpa in uniform, um, you have men in bowler hats and and and they'll be very smart. It's an amazing snapshot of 1917 and a very special moment in in my family's life and, uh, that, yeah, that photo is very special to me.

Simon Pearce: 34:49

So, yeah, to kind of lead on from the autograph books, the autograph books are amazing. They provide this amazing snapshot of their life in a very tumultuous time, at a time when they first met. There are some wonderful sketches. Dick and, who then went to work in the merchant navy and happened in the merchant navy, traveled between the uk and america and new york, and he has these wonderful sketches and poems and notes from people he met and they're an insight into their lives.

Simon Pearce: 35:15

These pieces of family history that are in our collections. I'm sure you know, I know you will have, and lots of people listening, they can just open up these amazing stories. And when you're lucky to have a family member, like my aunt, helen, who knows the stories behind them, who asked Ellen because they had a close relationship, asked them about these stories, you know she's preserved those and passed them on to me, so I'm really lucky to be able to sit with her and and then and discover those stories and, yeah, they bring a lot of joy. There's a lot. You know there's some sadness in there as well. There's a lot of joy and a lot of interest and absolutely fascinating as well.

Crista Cowan: 35:44

I love this, like the continuity of like Ellen keeping some kind of a record, that record being being passed down, helen being the one who kind of preserved those stories. Now you've become kind of that story keeper, and it's not just about the things, it's about the stories as well, and that you've already thought ahead about kind of your plan for the future, for how you're going to pass those things on to your daughter as you think about the future, kind of the future of your career in military history or the future of family history in general, or even more specifically, the future of your family stories and the way in which you hope that your daughter picks those up, what is it that you hope for?

Simon Pearce: 36:33

Well, I guess selfishly, I hope there's still discoveries to make on Howard's line, because I know when we research an ancestor for years and years and years, we think have I exhausted every single record? I still hope that there's records out there and it might take me by surprise that might be hidden in an archive that no one knows about. That may just contain a reference, and I'm still holding out hope there. So that's, that's one thing. I'm still holding out finding more photos. I've got a few ideas on how I may do that.

Simon Pearce: 37:00

But in terms of the going forward, you know I want to pass on these stories to my daughter. You know we all hope that then future generations will find it interesting and be moved by our family stories and keep them alive. And I hope hope that I don't know what you know family history records will be like for her in 50 or family years. You know my other family members, descendants, in 50 years' time. What will they be looking at? Who knows? You know that will help them learn about us. But I hope that and I don't doubt there'll be more discoveries to make and I'm still finding military ancestors and I'm still finding new records. But I guess the the family historian in me hopes there's still exciting discoveries out there to be made and I think I think there are.

Crista Cowan: 37:42

Yeah, I love that. Uh, that, yes, there are always discoveries to be made and, as I think over the last you know 25 years of my family history career, how far we've come it's exciting to think about what the next 25 years will bring in ways of online records and the ways in which AI might help and the records that might be discovered or the stories or photos that might still be buried in somebody's attic that might come to light. It is exciting to think about what's possible for sure. Well, thank you so much for spending some time talking to me. Thank you for sharing Howard's story and Ellen's story. I so appreciate it.

Simon Pearce: 38:18

Thank you so much for having me on. It really is a privilege to not only talk about family history with someone like yourself and share their story, but just yeah, have that opportunity to maybe think about it a little bit deeper and sit and talk about it for nearly an hour, which maybe I wouldn't always do. So that's a real honor. So thank you so much, Krista, I really appreciate it.