Yda Okurliand-Pack: 0:01

And as a child you know, you have kind of a combination of fear and excitement because you're thinking, oh, you know you're going to a new place and you don't really realize that you may never see your parents again that you are leaving everything that you know. You've been a secure child with a nice home, feeling you're loved and secure, and suddenly you're out there.

Crista Cowan: 0:34

Stories that Live In Us is a podcast that inspires you to form deep connections with your family, past, present and future. I'm Crista Cowan, known online as The Barefoot Genealogist. I've spent my whole life discovering the power of family history and I know that sharing the stories that live in you can change everything. Do you ever hear something about a historical event and wonder if you slept through all of high school history class? That's what happened to me when I met Elisa Seeherman. She came up to me at a conference with a story about an event in history called Operation Pedro Pan, and I had never heard of this. And when she started to explain to me exactly what it was and the scope of it, I couldn't believe that I had never heard of this. And when she started to explain to me exactly what it was and the scope of it, I couldn't believe that I had never heard of it. Did I sleep through history class that day? I immediately went down a Google rabbit hole where I started uncovering all of the information about exactly what Operation Pedro Pan was.

Crista Cowan: 1:44

Elisa's story involves a cousin Yda Okurliand-Pack, and Yda and her family were part of Operation Pedro Pan. I'm so excited for you to hear about their story, particularly about Yda's story, and I'm super curious to hear if you even knew that this happened. Well, thank you both for being here. I'm excited to have this conversation with you and Elisa. Why don't we just start with you and why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got into family history and we'll go from there?

Elisa Seeherman: 2:23

Okay, sure. So I actually got into researching my family history about 30 years ago, in the late 90s, before there were digitized records online. I just started building my family tree. I wanted to know more about my ancestors. Both of my grandfathers were actually born in Odessa and had come over as little boys. So I was very curious about that. So I had done some research and back then it was scheduling appointments to go to National Archives in person. I went to Philadelphia, I went up to New York, I spent a couple of days in DC, I went through lots and lots of microfilm and at that point it was really exciting to find images of ship passenger lists and see their names and naturalization papers, and that's pretty much all I was able to really find back then.

Elisa Seeherman: 3:21

At the same time I had two living grandparents still my maternal grandfather and my paternal grandmother, and back then, with these big clunky video cameras that had cassette tapes, I actually interviewed both of them. So that was sort of what I did back like 30 years ago. And then life got in the way and a lot of time passed and I dabbled in it here and there. Technology came along and I signed up for some free accounts and stuff, but then in, I guess, december of 2019, ancestry actually had a DNA special running a holiday special, so my husband and I gifted each other for Hanukkah presents. So it's really been since then that I've been diving in more and using my DNA results and matches in combination with so many records that I have access to online and like my family tree and all of the cousins that I've connected with, including Eda, I think. Since the pandemic I've identified around 50 living cousins that I had never had any contact with that I've actually either emailed, talked on the phone, video chatted or met in person.

Crista Cowan: 4:34

And he does want to. I love that. So tell me a little bit more about that experience of receiving your DNA results. Were you expecting to receive matches or were you just looking for, like, maybe, some ethnicity or community or migration information? What was it that you were looking for with taking that test?

Elisa Seeherman: 4:51

Okay. So ethnicity I'm Ashkenazi. I was not surprised to see that come back, as I think it was like 99% and like there was 1%. Finland, which has since disappeared. I'm 100% Ashkenazi. Finland, which has since disappeared I'm 100% Ashkenazi.

Elisa Seeherman: 5:09

With the matches, I was hoping to be able to see and identify people that I didn't know. I wasn't expecting to. You know, I did initially see some cousins who I knew who they were, but also being Ashkenazi cousins who I knew who they were, but also being Ashkenazi. I have over 200,000 matches on my list and, when you like, narrow it down to just like what ancestry defines as close matches, which is fourth cousins or closer, I still have like 30,000 people on that list.

Elisa Seeherman: 5:37

So you know, I did a lot of like also during the pandemic, a lot of virtual like, genealogy webinars and workshops and stuff. So I really was focusing initially on my matches that were more than 90 centimorgans and Eden is actually not in that list Because we're pretty sure we're second cousins once removed and I'm a generation down. I went in and I did the like who else has my last name in their trees? Down? I started like, I went in and I did the like who else has my last name in their trees. So I typed in Curland, which is my maiden name, and Edith's profile popped up as a match.

Crista Cowan: 6:16

And I thought well, that's interesting, I wonder who this person is. So, um, so, let me. I'm just going to interrupt you for just a second. So your maiden name remind me. Was it your paternal grandfather or your paternal grandmother that was still living?

Elisa Seeherman: 6:27

My paternal grandmother passed away in 2003. Okay, my paternal grandfather, joseph Kurland, passed away in 1993. And I could tell you a little bit about him for context, because then when Edith talks about her father, it will sort of come together. So he was born in odessa in 1904, uh, and when he was one and a half in 1906, his, his parents, my grandparents bernard well, he was boris at the time, but boris and leah curland um, they came over, they came into the port of philadelphia, but, um, my, my father, who was still alive, his name is paul curland. He never knew of any Kurland cousins other than his immediate descendants of Bernard and Elizabeth, who were Boris and Leah.

Crista Cowan: 7:15

So was your grandfather an only child.

Elisa Seeherman: 7:18

No, he had two brothers and a sister. He was the oldest but he was a man of few words and never talked about family. I mean, he would not have known any family because he was one and a half when he came over, but he never talked about family stories. My great grandmother died when my dad was like one, so he never knew her. My great grandfather passed away when my dad was like 17, but he knew him. But he also said he never heard him talk about having any siblings, having any cousins, nephews, nieces, anything. So it was really a mystery as far as other branches of Kerlin's beyond the descendants of my great grandparents initially.

Crista Cowan: 8:03

So you've got these immigrant ancestors to the United States, and everybody with that surname that you know as a cousin is from the two of them and the family that came here and settled.

Elisa Seeherman: 8:15

Yeah, until you took the DNA test, exactly, exactly. So, getting back to this particular find, I initially I sent an email or sent a message through Ancestry to Yda, but it looked like Okurliand and there was no information. I don't think Ida was really actively logging in and looking and using it and my message wasn't seen.

Crista Cowan: 8:55

Okay, so I'm going to pause your story right there because I would love to hear from Yda a little bit about Yda. Why was it that you took the Ancestry DNA test? Was this something you did on your own? Had you already had an interest in family history? Was it a novelty? Tell me a little bit about that experience of taking the DNA test for you.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 9:13

Well, I think, you know, I just was interested in finding out, but I really have to say I was very lax and following through on it and I really, you know I did it and I said, Okay, it's fine, you know, and I just didn't follow up on it. So I that's why I missed a lot of Elisa was was doing.

Crista Cowan: 9:38

Okay. So then, Elisa, how long was it from the time you sent your first message before you were able to connect?

Elisa Seeherman: 9:45

So it was, january of 2021 was when I did the surname search Okurliand and found Yda's profile and sent a message and didn't get a response and didn't, and didn't get a response. And then, um, at the same time, I actually decided to give my dad a DNA test kit. Um, after learning, you know, if you go a generation up, the results that you get are going to be even better. So, um, my dad's results came in in March. He gave me access and it was really high up on his list 286 cent word. Like that's big, that's like that second cousin level. But I still was like I don't know who this person is. That's such a close match to my dad. So I reached out again and I still didn't get a reply. So I was determined at this point to try to find another way to try to figure out who.

Crista Cowan: 10:49

Why Okurliand was yeah, and even, even with the endogamy that happens in Ashkenazi, Jewish DNA results a cousin match of high 200 centimorgans. That indicates, like you said, a second cousin match and that means they're going to have a set of great grandparents in common and that means you're connecting back in the old country with people who went different directions. Most likely, yes, right.

Elisa Seeherman: 11:20

Right, yes, yes. So I started to use my, my online research sleuthing skills, also known as Google, and I did a Google Y Okurliand? And the first thing that popped up was a link Yda's Facebook profile. But I wasn't her Facebook friend and I wanted to be cautious in how I approached her. Like I didn't her Facebook friend and I wanted to be cautious and how I approached her Like I didn't want to just send a message on Facebook like hey, I think I'm your cousin. So I did a little more googling and I actually found the obituary Yda's former former husband and it listed her son's name, which I then googled and he's a university professor and professors have websites that have their emails on them. So I actually sent an email to eat his son, sasha, and he didn't reply and that was like around February 2022.

Elisa Seeherman: 12:15

So another eight months later, in October, I was like, let me revisit this. And I sent another email. I changed my subjects I you know, I think we're curling relatives and I sent another email. I changed my subject I think we're Kurland relatives and I think maybe my previous message went to your spam and, lo and behold, sasha responded. I don't know what happened. I never saw your other message. In the response field he included Yda's email address. He said my mother wants to talk to you. And then we got connected. Eda and I had a lovely phone conversation and then she spoke with my dad, spoke with my aunt. So, as you know, Yda lives in Florida. My dad flew down and Yda met my dad. And then that April of 2023, I bought a ticket, my dad went down again and I drove with my dad and aunt down to Yda's home and finally had a chance to meet in person.

Crista Cowan: 13:10

Oh, I love that so much. Yda, I would love to hear again from you, when your son let you know that there was somebody looking for you that was a relative what your reaction was like, how you processed that information.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 13:28

Well, I tell you, this has been just wonderful for me because it's allowed me to know my father's family, which I had no clue about. My father never spoke. Well, I shouldn't say that we did have a cousin who had come to Cuba when I was maybe about 13 years old. Philip Philip Soskin, who was his mother, was a Kurliand. So he had found my family and connected my father with some cousins, but not with the Philadelphia. I mean, we knew that they were cousins in Philadelphia but we didn't get connected.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 14:13

But moreover, as you can see, my name Okurliand and it should be Kurlian , and we figured out that the reason for that is my father came on this boat which Elisa found the ticket she hasn't told you the best part of the story of Povich and somehow I think that O got stuck in front of the Kurland and they added an extra I in there and we've always been OKurliand. So it was great to find out what my real name was supposed to be and it was just wonderful. So Elisa contacted contacted, when my son contacted me, Elisa contacted contacted, when my son contacted me, and I got an email from Elisa, I said, oh my God, this is great. And you know. Since then, my son and I've talked about it, but it was really him who related the message to me, and then Elisa and I contacted each other after that.

Crista Cowan: 15:21

I love that Alyssa and I contacted each other after that. I love that. So, Yda, I would love to hear from you just about your life and your story, and there are things I am sure Elisa has has told you about your ancestors. But what did you know growing up? What was your experience growing up? Tell us a little bit about your story growing up?

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 15:44

What was your experience growing up? Tell us a little bit about your story. Well, I was born in Cuba, in a small town, you know. I was born in Santiago, which is a smaller. It's not the capital, it's not Havana, but I grew up in a very lovely family with my father who was Russian, and you know we had a very nice childhood in Cuba.

Crista Cowan: 16:10

So then, my father when did your father come to Cuba?

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 16:14

Well, I found out that he came to Cuba actually with Alyssa, who told me who found the ticket. It came in 1924, I think 1924, on a ship and the ticket was actually purchased by Elisa's great-grandfather.

Elisa Seeherman: 16:35

So at Temple University in their archives they have digitized records of you know, have digitized records of you know, the tickets that were purchased in Philadelphia for for ships passing. So I was searching through it and I did a search on Curlin and and, and I found from People's Bank of Philadelphia. It was a prepaid third class steamship ticket for and it said who purchased it. It had my great-grandfather, bernard Curland, at his Philadelphia address and it was in 1925. And it showed a ticket being purchased for and it was written out David O'Curland, leaving from Riga, latvia, to Havana, I believe at that time, um, in order that there wasn't a way to get a ticket into the us, and that was why my great-grandfather purchased a ticket to get him out to wherever he could, which was cuba and that was and they were brothers, brothers.

Elisa Seeherman: 17:41

No, I believe that my great-grandfather was Yda's father's uncle.

Crista Cowan: 17:46

Okay. So, Yda, your father, david, came to Cuba then in 1925, and is your mother Cuban? No, my mother is Cuban. Yes, okay, and do you know when they got married?

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 17:59

Oh, they got married probably in the 1940s. Maybe I was born in 1944, and I was the first child, so I think they were probably married in 1940, around that time, and my father really didn't talk a lot about this family. In fact I never knew my grandparents, I never knew my paternal grandparents I don't even have pictures of them and he really didn't speak much about you know, even this uncle that Elisa would tell you that came with him. But I have a brother also and my brother is younger than me and we of course came from Cuba when we were very young. We came to America. So that part of the story about my father's life. You know I know more about my father, since I've met Elisa and this family, than I know about him. You know we didn't talk about it. I mean he talked a lot. He was a very devoted Jew. He was actually very into, you know, being a. He was a Zionist very early on and we went to synagogue. We were raised in the Jewish synagogue. My father was a very devoted, you know, religious Jew, and so that's the kind of life we had.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 19:40

And then one day my parents sat us down and said that we were going to leave for America in two days. Oh, how old were you? I was 15. I was 15. My brother was 13. He had had his bar mitzvah in January, so this was September, so he was almost, you know. He was 13 and a half. I was 15, soon to be 16. And we were shocked, you know like what? We're going to America, well, and my parents said that we, they, would follow us shortly, they would be, you know, coming soon, but that we had to leave. And so we got ourselves packed and were put on this plane.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 20:44

I don't know if you know anything about Pedro Pan, but Pedro Pan was one of the largest exodus of Cuban children ever. 14,040 children, children between the ages of 6 and 18, were brought to the United States. 396 of those children were Jewish and we were part of that group. So the reason for that was really because there were many rumors about the fact that the Fidel Castro would take children away. You know, will cut parental rights and take these children to be indoctrinated and to be.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 21:29

It was called Patria Protestat. It was a movement, and the parents were just terrified to have their children taken away. As a matter of fact, it turned out to be unfounded the rumors, but they were so you know, the parents were so critical, so upset about it, that it brought about this exodus, which was organized by the Archdiocese of Miami, by a priest by the name of Father Walsh. He organized this whole movement and the Jewish kids were taken care of by the Hayas, which is the Hebrew immigrant aid service. And so we were met at the airport in Miami by the Jewish Family Service and we spent the first night in somebody's home, and then they ran out of houses in Miami, so they started shipping these kids to other parts of the country. So we ended up in Rochester, New York, and we were placed in foster care.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 22:43

Were you and your brother together.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 22:47

Yes, we were kept together. So we went through several foster homes and unfortunately, in 1962, castro stopped the Freedom Flight, so that kept my mother. In 1962, castro stopped the freedom flight, so that kept my mother, you know, in Cuba. She couldn't get out and my father died unexpectedly about a year after we arrived. He was young, he was 55. He had, I think, just probably some post-op complications.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 23:20

So we Philip, our cousin came to Rochester to give us the news of my father's passing. I think he might have been contacted by the Jewish Family Service and they felt that it would be nice to have a relative come and give us the news rather than have, you know, the foster parents or the Jewish Family Service do it. So that's pretty much my story. So we my mother did arrive eventually. She came three years later and she and we again were assisted by the Jewish Family Service who assisted us in getting home and getting, you know, getting a place to live.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 24:12

My mother got the job and you know, our life as immigrants began at that point and since then my mother and my brother, they go and to Miami and they made a very good life here. My mother died at 98 years old and she became a very well-known ambassador to the Cuban people in Miami. She worked for an agency that brought people you know to third world countries. That brought people you know to certain countries, and my brother also worked in Miami and you know our lives like any other immigrant. We made it work.

Crista Cowan: 24:59

It sounds like it. So, as you think back on that time of your life being separated from your parents, hearing the news about your father's death was there. I mean, you're still essentially a child Like. What were your feelings about that time of your life?

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 25:15

You know I was thinking, I have this image that time was put in what we refer to as a fishbowl and essentially it was a glass enclosure that once you said goodbye to your parents, you could only see them through this glass. And I have this image through this glass and I have this image. My father had, you know, those old cameras that had that can. They had like a case that was scanned and I still remember my father taking pictures through this glass bowl with this camera. And as a child, you know, you have kind of a combination of fear and excitement because you're thinking, oh, you know you're going to a new place and you don't really realize that you may never see your parents again, that you are leaving everything that you know. You know you've been a secure child with a nice home, feeling you're loved and secure, and suddenly you're out there and I remember they gave me a doll to be recognized. I carried this rag doll and that was the way that I was supposed to be recognized by the Jewish family, whoever came to greet us, an official from the Hayas or one of that and I think my brother carried something else and I remember just feeling, you know, not necessarily bad or sad, but a little fear, but also a little excitement. And I don't know if everybody felt like that, but that's what you feel when you're a kid. You know you never think about until later.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 27:22

Now that first night was bad. That first night was kind of scary, you know, because you're going into a home with total strangers. You don't speak the language, not speak a word of the language, and you don't know these people. And they were very nice, you know. They put us in a nice home, the people were lovely to us, but you're like lost. You're totally lost. And the other thing that was very traumatic is that before you leave, you are searched. They do a body search. So you're 15 years old and you're being put through. You know something that's quite traumatic when you're 15 and because they're checking to make sure that you don't have any contraband.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 28:13

So they had sewn some little diamond earrings into the fold of my dress you know the hem. My mother had sewn something that my father had given me some diamond earrings and a star of David. I never remember, I forget that I had a diamond star of David sewn into my and I thought, oh my God, if they find this, I'm going to be in big trouble, but of course it was in the hem of the dress, so I never really, you know, they don't look on that the dress, so I never really really don't look on that. So then we came and then, I think two days later, we were shipped off to Rochester, new York, with our first foster family, who were Holocaust survivors from Poland, didn't speak Spanish at all and and we didn't know anything.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 29:09

So we learned very quickly. We would point to things, bathroom, but within two, three weeks we were fluent. You know kids learn very quickly and I would say within a month I was able to communicate, you know, to have enough of the language to communicate with them. And then we went to probably four different foster homes over time.

Crista Cowan: 29:39

And it was over the course of. What did you say three years before your mom was brought over?

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 29:44

My well, maybe not four. Oh, my mom came three years later. So I think she came about three years Because in 62, they cut the flights and then finally, I think in 63, they restarted the freedom flights and my mother was able to get out and again she received tremendous help from the IS and the Jewish Family Service. They were instrumental in getting my mother out and reuniting our family.

Crista Cowan: 30:21

Was your mom able to bring any photos or anything personal with her when she came or?

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 30:27

anything personal with her when she came. No, my mom relates that she was still living in our family home. And what they do before you come, before you leave, they send out officials to do an inventory. So all the valuables that you have are inventoried by the government and you're not allowed to take anything, including your personal jewelry. My mother came with nothing. She left her entire home behind, all our property, our valuable property, all our property, our valuable property, her jewelry, everything. And I actually visited my home when I was in Cuba there are some people from the embassy living there now and I saw the man entering the home and I asked him. I said you know, I used to live here. This was my home. It was my home. It's now the government. And he was very nice. He said oh sure, you're welcome to come in and look. But I thought to myself, my son was with me. He says Mom, just forget it. You know if somebody's living there, it's not your house anymore. So we moved on, yeah.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 31:51

Well yes, these homes are taken over by government officials.

Crista Cowan: 31:58

So I guess the reason I asked that question is because you have this really poignant last memory of your father standing there with a camera taking a picture of you.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 32:07

I love my father. He was. I was extremely close to my dad, like most girls are. You know, girls and fathers have a very special relationship, just like boys and mothers, you know. It's just a very special thing. And my father was wonderful. He was just an amazing, brilliant, gentle, loving, wonderful guy, and so for me the trauma of leaving my father was very hard and the trauma of not ever seeing him again. You know, losing him. He died actually exactly a year. We came in September and he died in September of 62. So it was like exactly one year. So that was very hard and it was even harder on my brother because my brother was at that age where boys really need their fathers and so my brother really fell apart. For him. It was when my cousin Phillip arrived and we had no idea why he came.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 33:26

You know. He came to our foster home. We thought what is he doing here? You know, because we thought he just came to visit and he came to give us the bad news and my brother was just devastated. So it kind of, you know, being the older sister, it put me in the position of having to be the adult in the room to grow up, because I had to take care of my little brother, so it didn't allow me to grieve, and it took me many years to be able to actually grieve my father's death because, you know, I had to be strong, I had to take care of my brother, and so that's what I did, and you just become a survivor and move on. And I have a very good life. I'm about to be 80 years old, wow.

Crista Cowan: 34:24

And you married and had how many children.

Yda Okurliand-Pack: 34:35

I have one son, my son Sasha, who is now 49. And he's married. He has a little twin. I have little twin daughters that are six. They're identical twin girls and I love being with them and spending time with them. And my son is good. He's a very good person. I love that my husband died unfortunately very young, but he was also a very nice person, I think. At least I found his obituary. That's how she eventually connected with my son.

Crista Cowan: 35:12

Sasha, thank you so much for sharing your story. I appreciate it so much. Elisa, I would love just to hear from you a little bit about like now that you've been on this journey and made this connection and understand a little bit more about how the family was separated and been reunited. What is it that you hope for the future as you continue on your family history journey?

Elisa Seeherman: 35:37

I would like to make connections with more of my living relatives, learn more of their stories. You know I'm fascinated with the history but I'm also, um, you know, want to take advantage of being able to, to meet people who are here, who we all have, these shared descendants somewhere up the line. You know, I mean, and well, I connected with Yda, I had no idea that I had any ancestors that went to Cuba, just didn't know it. So a lot of it is about making connections and reconnection.

Crista Cowan: 36:17

Yeah, beautifully said. Thank you, and thank you both again so much for taking the time and sharing your stories. Like Yda said, there are so many stories. Like Edith said, there are so many stories, but the ones that I think resonate the most are the ones where we can connect with each other and just share our stories and hear each other and see each other and and like you said, elisa, beautifully connect and reconnect.